Restorative Justice, Real Lives

What if justice worked because people felt human again? We open with a rare global moment—the UN revisiting the Copenhagen Agreement—and ground it in daily life, where communities decide whether harm ends in punishment or repair. With Miss V as our guide, we unpack restorative justice beyond the headlines: not a buzzword, but a living practice that starts with belonging and scales through simple, repeatable habits.

You’ll hear how “circle parties” in New York City flip the script. No clipboards or mandates—just a bar, a table, a talking piece, and a mix of neighbors, returning citizens, and practitioners. In that relaxed space, people who were once reduced to case numbers share stories, ask for help, and get real referrals on the spot. Jobs, GED classes, counseling, transit money—resources move because the room is wired with relationships. The point isn’t to build another nonprofit; it’s to route people into what already exists and fill the human gaps that programs can’t reach.

We also take on the hard stuff: racial disparities in the criminal legal system, the weight of stigma after prison, and the tension between structural harm and personal agency. Miss V brings firsthand stories of change—like the man who chose restraint over retaliation and rebuilt his life decision by decision. Together, we map a practical approach to reentry where accountability and dignity can coexist, and where everyday culture, not crisis response, carries the work forward. If you’ve wondered how to make justice feel real, start here: repair the harm, widen the circle, and let people breathe.

If this conversation moved you, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a review so more people can find it. Your voice helps grow these circles.

Chapters

• 0:00 Warm Welcome And Recent Travels
• 1:16 The Copenhagen Agreement’s Three Pillars
• 3:25 Inside The Summit: Global Breakouts And Themes
• 4:17 Defining Restorative Justice And Roots
• 6:20 Community-Centered Repair Over Punishment
• 8:10 Miss V’s Path Into The Work
• 10:10 Implementation Pitfalls And Restorative Living
• 12:05 Introducing Circle Parties
• 14:10 Belonging, Dignity, And Self-Driven Change
• 16:50 Reentry Realities And Human Needs
• 19:10 Scaling The Space And Referrals
• 21:20 Formalizing The Model And Next Steps
• 23:05 Restorative Justice And Racial Disparities
• 26:20 Agency, Choices, And Avoiding Harm
• 29:40 A Young Man’s Turning Point And Growth
• 33:20 Accountability, System Critique, And Hope

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Hello everyone, I'm Dr. Beatrice Hippolyte, and this is your world! Hello everyone, welcome one more time to a brand new episode of Your World with Dr. Beatrice Hippolyte. Our guest for today is Ms. Vidiadwa Kanat, best known as Miss V. Miss V is in the house. Hi, thank you so much for having me. Hey, so are you looking pretty as usual? Oh, thank you. Okay, so I know we have a very important topic to talk about. Yes, but before I you kind of like dive in into that topic, so tell me about you. How are you doing? You know?

SPEAKER_01: 0:50

Yeah, I'm good. It's it's almost December. We're getting into the holiday season. Yes, indeed. I'm excited. I'm also tired. I'm exhausted, but I'm really happy to be here with you. Okay. Yeah, how are you?

SPEAKER_00: 1:06

Good, good. Last time I saw you in Qatar.

SPEAKER_01: 1:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 1:11

Okay, so you're gonna have to talk about that. So what why you were there and everything?

SPEAKER_01: 1:16

Yes. So I was in Doha Qatar at the United Nations Summit for Social Development. I was there a couple weeks ago for about a whole week. I had never been to that part of the world, and I was really excited to be there. Um, so a lot of why we went and why I was even selected to go on this trip.

SPEAKER_00: 1:36

Oh, you were selected. I was.

SPEAKER_01: 1:38

Okay, okay, now you're getting me more kidding. So, okay, feed me in. So the idea was almost 20, 25 years ago, the United Nations had a summit for the first time ever, and they signed something called the Copenhagen Agreement. The Copenhagen Agreement essentially said there were like three pillars that we did not want to exist in our world. Essentially, like poverty as a concept should not exist in the world with the resources that we have. It's saying that everyone has the dignity and the right to work, and social integration or reintegration is very, very important. But in the over the 20 years, they didn't come back together.

SPEAKER_00: 2:16

You say twipila, so you mentioned one. What are the other two?

SPEAKER_01: 2:19

So the first one was okay, let's roll it back. Okay, so the first one was poverty does not exist in any capacity. The second one is about reintegration. So everyone has the right to reintegrate into society and be around people that value their full self. And the third is that people have the right and the dignity to work. So they have the skill set, they have the supports, and those works are not just, oh, just do this job and whatever. It's something that people feel excited about going. There's so many opportunities in our workforce. So those were the three things. But what's crazy is in 20, 25 years, they met once and they never met again. So this year was the second time that they all came together to work and to be together to re-sign that declaration, especially with everything that is happening in the world right now. People decided to come together from every country and state.

SPEAKER_00: 3:15

How many countries were dear? A lot.

SPEAKER_01: 3:18

I don't want to be able to say the wrong number, but it was a lot. I have never seen so many people. And there were breakout sessions every day from people from all around the world talking about women's rights, young people, incarceration. Um, there was even a whole day dedicated to the private sector. And what does the private sector have to do with all of this type of work?

SPEAKER_00: 3:41

So, yeah. Okay, okay. So it seemed, you know, you had a lot of fun. I did, I did, and I learned so much. So much. So much. So much. Okay. I know today we have a very interesting topic. So what it is about again?

SPEAKER_01: 3:57

Yeah, restorative justice. Like you see it on the on the headlines in the media, but so many of us just don't even know what that means. Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 4:07

Um, so I'm really excited to be here and light on it. Okay, so without further saying, walk us through it.

SPEAKER_01: 4:15

Yeah. So restorative justice, I think what's important to start with, right? Is that it is a black and indigenous tradition that dates back centuries. So if you think back to your ancestors, whoever you believe those people were, how did they gather? They gathered in community, they made decisions in community. Usually the person that was facilitating wasn't the one with the most money, it was the one that knew everyone, right? And so it's that concept just bringing it into modern society. It's saying, like, hey, we've kind of like gone off track. We're incarcerating so many people, a lot of harm is happening, a lot of violent crimes are not actually being addressed. We see people um suffering from so much, and then it's like, well, where is the person? It's like, oh, we don't know, we don't know what's going on. But those people that are survivors, they never get to heal. So it's like, what can we do differently? And it's really like we don't have to reinvent the wheel. Let's go back to how we used to do things and seeing we can bring that into it. So the way I like to define restorative justice is it is just a way to be in community and it takes away that punitive approach we typically see, and it talks about harm. So it says instead of like blame, instead of shame, instead of like, why did you do this, or you are a bad person, it's saying like what harm happened and how can we repair it? And repair really looks so many ways for so many different types of people, but repair it in the sense of that individualistive, but also as a group, right? Because let's say me and you get into an argument, right? They say, Well, repair the harm between the two of you, sure, but do we also know other people in our life that know us? And all of a sudden they're like, ooh, Dr. H and Miss V, they're fighting again. That's not just between us, our community feels that. Now our community feels like, can we talk to about the vet? Can we not? Do we know what to do? So restorative justice really believes we need to take a community-centered approach to resolving harm and saying, like, it's not just between two people, it's between an entire community. So, how can we involve everyone to get that relationship back in the right space?

SPEAKER_00: 6:35

Okay, that's very interesting. Everything, you know, oftentimes starts somewhere. Where, you know, that idea to embrace and walk toward restorative justice, where that idea came from? When did you start? What motivates you, you know, to look outward?

SPEAKER_01: 6:54

Yeah, so I was a young person living in DC back in like 2016, 2017. I had just graduated trying to figure out what is it that I want to do with my life, and I heard about restorative justice the same way most of us do, through the media, through little documentaries, and I said, this is a very interesting framework, but does it work? It sounds too good to be true. We're all gonna sit in a circle and do kumbaya. I don't know about that. So I was very interested in the concept, but I wanted to see if it could work in implementation. So that's really when I decided almost seven years ago to just move to New York and test it out in the greatest city in the world, right? Like, let's see what this is. And so my first year living in New York, I met some some incredible people who had gone through such extreme harm, you know, domestic violence, just being survivors of just unexpla it unexplainable harm. Like when I'm listening to their stories, I said, How are you here? How are you surviving? How are you happy? And they all told me they said restorative justice, because restorative justice was more for me than something else. And it made me say, okay, let me see what more is there to this. So I really came to test a social experiment in the city and learn from people that have been the most impacted. Is this real? Does this work? Is this something we can actually recommend? And I learned, I said, told myself when I moved to New York, I'm either gonna move here and say Restorial Justice does not work, or it works a hundred percent. And I was surprised by how quickly I saw it does work. It's more of how is it implemented, who's using it and in what way. But yeah, I just was a curious young person and wanted to try it out, and I had nothing better to do.

SPEAKER_00: 8:47

Okay, so if you were to tap on how it is implemented, so what will be the answer and who's using it? Yeah, will be my second question.

SPEAKER_01: 8:55

Yeah, I think, well, the first thing I want to say is that restorative justice has turned into a buzzword, like it has turned into the thing everyone wants to slap on things, right? So for a lot of people, restorative justice on an implementation perspective is like, let's do a circle, let's have a unit, let's have a department within something. But what I've learned is that's why it's not working because it's not systemic, right? So, like anyone can do a circle, anyone can do a healing circle, anyone can come in and say, hey, what happened here, right? But what we can't do is make it a value that everyone observes. So there's a term we like to call restorative living, right? And that I think is the key to restorative justice and practices. It's this idea that we say, okay, we're not talking about de-escalating, we're not talking about these moments of high crisis, we're talking about who we are as people. So we like to come into spaces and say, okay, like I can de-escalate him, or I can learn the strategies and the skill sets to help this young woman. But the reason it doesn't work every single time is because is this who you are in real life? When your husband doesn't do the dishes, how are you handling that conversation? When someone's rude to you in the store, are you like, hmm, let me think about repair? Are you reacting? We can't be one way in our life and then show up to work and be a completely different thing. You want work. Yeah, so I think the biggest thing is implementing it systemically, but starting with these basic things. Because as you know, especially in your city and the world we live in, everything is so reactive. It's like, oh, crisis happened, now let's use restorative justice. But wait, what happened to when we were all just sitting here hanging out? Restorative justice has a place there too, and I believe when we start there, that's really when the shifts can happen, and not just in these crisis moments.

unknown: 10:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 10:53

Okay, so now I understand, you know, where the idea came from, what got you involved into it. So at this present moment, where are you at walking toward that project?

SPEAKER_01: 11:05

Yeah, so my biggest project this year, I've done this since March, is something that I like to call circle parties. So, right, so when we think of this idea of restorative justice, typically we think of circles, right? So we have young people, older folks, everyone in between. We get into a circle, we do community building, there's a talking piece, you know, very typical. But what I really realized this year was there are so many programs, but not enough spaces for our young people and people that are impacted to just be, to just learn, to just exist in how they are. A lot of times, I've learned from a lot of people coming home from prison and jail. They tell me, like, I don't want a program. I want to feel like a person. How do I feel like a person? So we created these events called circle parties where we show up someplace, usually a bar, a restaurant, anywhere that likes to have us, and we have something called circle parties. They're just intentional spaces for people from all walks of life to come together and just talk. Sometimes we learn, sometimes we have presentations, sometimes people are just like, I just want to come after work and hang out, listen to some music and talk. And what we've seen is that space almost regulates itself, right? You see young people maybe made a questionable decision when they were out, but another young person says, this is a restorative space, right? So I'm gonna take a walk with you.

SPEAKER_00: 12:33

Because while you were away from prison, you know, or jail for a very long time, yeah, you know, you kind of lost a lot. Yes, you know, you lost a lot. And coming back into the community, you really have to integrate totally. Oftentimes, they tend to be mandated. So whether you like it or not, if it is part of your condition of release, so you have to follow through because uh if you fail on doing that, you know what the outcome is gonna be. You're gonna fall back where you came from. And I think you know, at that level, it's very important to create that sense of community and to welcome people and make them feel human again. So it's very important. Who doesn't like to feel human?

SPEAKER_01: 13:24

Exactly. You know, I realized to me this is basic, right? This is just like belonging, this very small concept. To me, I didn't feel like I was doing anything spectacular. I was just bringing people together in a space, didn't cost me any money, it just cost me some time. But what I saw with the young people, especially those impacted by incarceration, watching a 24-year-old who has not been in school in almost 10 years, just sit at a bar, order a drink, and talk about philosophy with people. I never expected that to make such a difference. All of a sudden, a week later, Miss V, um, I decided that I'm gonna give up marijuana. I said, I didn't ask you to do that. He said, I know, but I realized I keep going to these things, I keep talking to you, and I started realizing why am I outside? They're not talking about anything important. I want to talk about books, I want to talk about the documentary, I want to teach a philosophy class to kids in the hood. That's what I want to do. And I said, Amazing, but I didn't ask you to do that, and that's really the difference. Showing someone like you're valuable, have a drink.

SPEAKER_00: 14:37

And you know, mentioning mentioning books, so prison and jail, so hard to places that people get to read a lot design college. Yes, because you have, you know, all the time in the wall and having the public library come in and offer all types of books. I think it's very important. And believe it or not, you will have some bright young folks, you know, uh dealing with uh with the law. So as much that I don't want to be naive to think that everybody is innocent, so everybody, you know, people should not be in jail. So, you know, there are people unfortunately, so they don't belong anywhere else. But at the end of the day, so it's like for those who have served time, you know, so this is the way I normally see things. Somebody committed a crime, went to prison or jail, you know, wherever, serve the time and come back to society. That person paid dues to society, and upon returning back into our community, that person should be able to have all the resources available to properly reintegrate and be human again. Because hey, I made a mistake, I paid for it. So now if you don't allow me to reintegrate and be human again, I feel that now my life is being stolen from me. You see what I mean? So it's like if you don't allow me to reintegrate, then it seems that I'm still paying for the calm that I did and when it's gonna be over.

SPEAKER_01: 16:30

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And even in these like smallest moments, right, it makes such a difference. It's like, what does it mean to be human after you've experienced, like, regardless of someone's viewpoint, right? Around like, does this person deserve to have done this amount of time? We're not that's even not even the conversation. It's just like jail and prison is not a pretty place. We know that by design. It is not somewhere where people are happy, like, right? Like, maybe people find joy in the space, but it is not a place designed to like put smiles on people's faces, right? So, whatever you go through in that space, you have to heal from that, and that even me leaving and all the violence, you know, that is going to be you have the witch.

SPEAKER_00: 17:18

You know, and sometimes you know, uh experience, you know, on a personal level. So, you know, so after you dealt with all of that, you know, finally got back to the community. Yeah, you want to live a decent life.

SPEAKER_01: 17:31

Yeah, and think about it, even for us as people that just work, right? Like we go to even if you work a nine to five and you're going to work, and your boss makes you mad, or your coworker makes you mad, you call up your friends and you say, Hey girl, you want to come over? Like, let's talk. I need to vent. Incarcerated folks coming home deserve the same thing, but that doesn't exist for them. They don't have a support system like that. And a lot of times their support system are from those same communities that they're not supposed to be talking to, right? According to their parole or probation officer. So, what do they do then? So, we're trying to just create a space where like you could kind of check it out.

SPEAKER_00: 18:09

And unfortunately, you know, you have many people, you know, for whatever reason, kind of like have burned the bridges. So, upon returning back to the community, they some of them may not have anybody at all, you know, to rely on. Yeah, and that's where the danger may come from because when you don't have anybody to rely on, there is no resources available. So, what's gonna happen? You may be end up falling into the same situation that got you in jail at the first place.

SPEAKER_01: 18:43

And you know what's funny is every time I've hosted these circle parties, of course, I've invited so many people in my life that are formally incarcerated, and I never when the first I first started, I didn't know how it was gonna go, right? Because I don't have control over this space. We're in the free world, let's see what happens. And to my surprise, the star of the show every single time was someone formally incarcerated because I think that they felt for the first time that they didn't have to have shame around their experiences and their stories, that they could show up and tell them, tell crazy stories, but also talk about give perspective on things, right? When you have seen and you have been through such trauma, you've also learned so much. So their voices started to rise, their voices start to be the center, and we started watching people that you would never think you guys are really having a conversation right now? They are, yeah. How often you conduct those meetings? Yeah, so um since March, I've been doing them every month. Um, the last Friday of every month, we just pick a place and we invite folks, and now we're really looking to scale that up to almost weekly um in New York. So anyone who's just interested in that space, um on average, on a How many people are you know? Um 20 to 40 people are showing up. I'll tell you what number. Interesting is it's never the same people every month. Um so what I've been seeing is that like even if people don't come, I'm getting phone calls. Midnight. I'm so sorry, Miss V. Like I was outside. I didn't go, I didn't prioritize it. But who showed up? What did you guys talk about? Those are the calls I'm getting. So my thing is that's 20 to 40 people that are physically present, and probably about 20 to 40 people who are just calling, messaging me, saying, How was it? I'm so sorry I didn't come. I want to come to the next one. When's the next one? And so it's like this is a need because people don't feel this level of belonging. Um, and it's not transactional. So something that I've been very challenged to do in these spaces is not facilitate, right? I'm Ms. V. I'm the facilitator, I'm the teacher, I'm the educator. But no, because this is a space for me to be human as well. If I had a hard month, guess what? I'm gonna have a hard month, I'm gonna have my glass of wine and I'm gonna be fine. Because we're all human and we all hold the space together. It's not on me to hold the space. Maybe I organize it, said I'm the invite, but it's for all of us to come together and say, like, what do we need? And if Miss V needs to have a glass of wine at the bar, she does, and that's okay too.

SPEAKER_00: 21:24

Okay, I understand that every month you have a meeting, and if I'm pretty sure for drink and foods, you know, are normally involved. But after that big meeting, what's next? How you help them, you know, so it's like because I understand, so hey, I need those type of environments, you know, where I can connect with other human beings and feel human again, but uh it doesn't stop there. So work related, or for those who may have a mental health problem going on, how do you plan or you how do you normally assist or how do you plan to assist them in that level? Because to fully reintegrate in society, I'll need a job after the down, I'll need a job.

SPEAKER_01: 22:11

Yeah, and I think it's relying on not just one person to run the space, but all of us too. So I think out of let's say 40 people attend, about 10 people are people that work in nonprofits, in workforce, in places all across the city. So the biggest goal is like our referral process. There is no person that should show up at our event and say, like, I can't get a job. What do you mean you can't get a job? There's millions of dollars funneled into workforce programs in New York City. We can get you into a program, we can make a call, we can make a referral, we can do all of that. So a lot of that is like if someone's talking to me and I'm like, ooh, you need a resource, and I don't know. There is five people at that event. I say, hey Noble, come over here real quick. Can you talk to this young man? He said he needs this, I don't really know, and then boom, it's done. Because what we forget is so many of us that do this work like full time, we are so connected with our resources. There is someone I can call for almost anything, and that's kind of how this started. Because I was working with this young man who was aged out.

SPEAKER_00: 23:17

But you don't have an agency that is looking for a job for those people.

SPEAKER_01: 23:21

No, not an agency, no, it's just all based on individual referrals that we do. So, for example, like um a lot of workforce programs age out after 23, 24, but we have a lot of people 26 coming home, 29 coming home, 30, 30, 40, yeah. Of course. So it's like, well, what dead? So my idea was said, well, I can pay a little bit of money to get this kid food, get get certain necessities if he goes to the program, all of that stuff. But I said, you know what? I have a whole community. I have people that have known me for 10 years and watch my whole journey. So I posted one day on my Instagram. I say, hey guys, I got this kid, 24. He's going to GD classes every day, showing up, making the right choices for himself, but we don't have money to give him food. I want to be able to buy him lunch every day that he's here. I think that's a basic human right in class for six hours a day. All of a sudden, people I haven't talked to in 10 years. Here's$100 on Cash App. Here's$50 here, here's$20 here. I said, you just gave me a budget. Okay. So every need that I had that I couldn't fulfill, I would just ask my community, hey guys, this is the need. You guys know anyone? And all of a sudden, people were shipping him books, people were shipping him materials, all this stuff.

SPEAKER_00: 24:40

Okay, so you say this is it is not an agency, but down the road, so what the route so that you plan to go because you're gonna have to work on budgets, you're gonna need accounting, you know, you receive money from people, even if it is ten dollars or twenty dollars, one hundred dollars. So you want to, you know, you want to be able to have an accountant to do your book, right? And so I'm probably down the road will have to get paid because if you are receiving income, then you have to claim them. So it's a lot of things. So I understand for now, so you just walk on on the surface, but what is the plan for the next two or five years?

SPEAKER_01: 25:24

Yeah, so in six months, like I will have a fully formed, functioning LLC whose only job is to essentially hold that money and then reinvest it into the community. And we already have some incredible nonprofit partners who are already saying, we'll be your fiscal sponsor. Okay. So we are just formalizing now. What does that actually look like in real time? I don't want to be in a space where I'm just recreating a nonprofit. We have so many incredible nonprofits in this world. We do not need more. We need is a system to funnel people in and out. So my goal is to formalize, operationalize a system like this, and launch it in New York City and hopefully around the world with all of my global connections forming now.

SPEAKER_00: 26:10

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's uh that's pretty interesting. My next question, Ms. V. How restorative justice can I just wish all disparities in the criminal justice system?

SPEAKER_01: 26:23

Yeah, great question. Loaded question, right? What we're always thinking about. I think that restorative justice is really about harm, right? And I think one of the critiques is we keep communities of color, we keep being told this. Repair the harm, talk to the person. We're like, we don't want to hear that. Like, we have so much other stuff going on, right? But what I've learned is that it's just taking a moment to separate yourself from the system because a lot of times we get caught up in what is other people saying? What are other people's feelings about what happened to me? I don't know. We're talking about you. What do you need? And that's it. So I think with racial disparities, there's so much of that in our criminal legal system. But a lot of the times it's like, especially when we talk about black men being incarcerated, a lot of the reasons they're being incarcerated and also dying, they're dying at very early ages. Before the age of 50, we're seeing famous black men just die. And we're like, what's going on? What's going on with the health, the mental health of it all? It's just that they don't have spaces to just be vulnerable, to just breathe, to speak about their pain without it being weaponized. So I think the more spaces we have for people to just say, like, I'm struggling. That's okay. That's okay that you're here. And like we create a safe container for people to move through that pain, the easier it's gonna be for them. Because, like we talked about earlier, the only way to critique the system is to not be part of the system, right? You can't keep going back into the cycles of incarceration and say, Oh, this is a system that did this to me. Yes, the system can be violent, the system can be harmful. Nobody's not saying that, but interpersonal agency, we also have that. What are the choices that we're making? Who are the people that we're around? So I think restorative justice really can shift the conditions of a community, it can shift the conditions of a space. So while last Friday of every month, it's not perfect, it's there though. So if anyone needs it, it's a moving space, and the amount of people that take resources from there and come back and are like, I'm having a stable job now, and I still want to show up because I'm still complaining about my boss and I still need the space.

SPEAKER_00: 28:43

I think prevent you mentioned something that is very important, Miss V, when you say sometimes people complain about the system, the system can do this to you, can do that to you, and it's a great point that you raised. I understand we already know the system can be violent, the system can be unfair, you know, the system can be evil, but at the same time, as an individual, as a person, I have the responsibility to take care of myself and do my and my ultimate best not to be on the wrong side of the law. If I already know what the system is kind of like you know, like appliance, if I know like walking down the road or on the street, you know, with a brown bag, that can trigger for the cops to stop me and ask me questions, and before even know it, that can turn take a different turn. I'll avoid not to walk and using a brown bag, you know, while I'm on the street. So if I know certain, you know, the way sometimes the way we even the way we dress as black men, you know, so I know you know wearing my hair a different way or wearing my pants, you know, like uh close to my knees can be a trigger for the cops, you know, to pull me. Hey, let me let me keep the pen where it be, you know, the pen where they belong. So put them, you know, put them up. So, you know, there are a lot of things that you know that can trigger for the cops to stop us, you know. So it is unfortunate. So, and having a conversation about racism, so it's not something that we try to invent. It's dear. You know, we came from a very long way. I understand that, but we have a very long way to go. So it's like as a black person, I don't want to fool myself and think that you know what, oh, living in this country, everything is okay, it's over, it's not over. So it's like whatever that I can do to protect myself, I'll do it. So I understand there are there are times situations may occur, you may be at the wrong place at the one, you know, at the wrong time. So there are times you don't have control over things and you may get into a situation, but whatever bad situation that you can avoid and you have the control not to get involved into it, by all means go ahead and do so. Because at the end of the day, if you don't protect yourself, you don't if you don't try not to get into the system, the system eventually, when the system gets to you, the system you know will swallow you.

SPEAKER_01: 31:43

Yes, you know, no, absolutely, and it's it's like two things can be true at once, right? We can say the system is violent, and I like that you said the word evil, right? It because truly at times you're like, this is evil, but then what did we do in the process to make sure that nobody could use anything against us, right? So when did we make those right decisions? And I think taking those steps and saying, like, all right, maybe I didn't make the right decision. And I there's a young man I worked with that had been incarcerated over 15 times in 10 years, right? Like your typical re-offender, re-offender, re-offender. I had a conversation with him and I said, You have to not want to sit at these medal tables in jail or in prison more than any other decision you want. Every move you make needs to be, could this potentially land me back in that place? And until you love yourself enough to say, you know what, every move I make is gonna make sure I will never end up back here. I believe that you can get there. Yeah. But he, you know, he said to me, he said, I feel safer in a place like jail or prison than I do in the outside world because I'm so used to it. All my friends are in there, I know how to move in there, I've been doing it for 15 plus years. And he said, the real world is scary.

SPEAKER_00: 33:06

It's sad, it is sad to hear somebody talks like that. But how does that make you feel, uh, Miss V, hearing a young man talking in that manner to you?

SPEAKER_01: 33:17

It breaks my heart. It breaks my heart because we've normalized the violence of incarceration, we've normalized that that's the world that's safer for him than a coffee shop drinking a latte. I remember taking him to get his first latte. It's like Miss V, I don't do lattes. Well, you're gonna do a latte today. Look at this menu, pick one that looks interesting, and you're just gonna try it. What's the harm in trying it? And what I realized now working with him is he fully changed his life since coming home. And he's still, you know, on trial, all this stuff, going through legal processes, but he changed and I asked him, I said, What was the moment? I said, you know, I've had conversations with you, but like, what was the thing for you? And he said, he said, because he's like, I almost got in an argument. He was like, I was in prison, I almost got into an argument on the phone because they wouldn't let me have my phone time, right? That's a typical thing. And he said, I I almost got in a huge fight. And he said, and then I call, nobody picks up. No one, none of my family picked up, no one picked up. He said, I almost got into an altercation to get on the phone, and on the phone, nobody would answer the phone. So what am I fighting for? Why am I here? He was like, that was a moment I realized, like, do I want to sit at these metal tables? Is this what I want my life to be? And you know, I I am so impressed by him because it's his choice. And I think that's the thing we miss with restorative justice. We think we can mandate it, we think we can tell people like this is what you need to do. No, he stopped getting incarcerated because he hit rock bottom and he put two and two together. It wasn't sure, could I have inspired a thought? Sure, of course. But he has to walk in his body every single day. And even since putting the violence down, he's told me stories of walking down a wrong street and suddenly 15 guns on him. People, we heard about you. And he had to be like, Look, I'm gonna walk away because this is what I value. And he said, even in moments where he's walked away but thought about doing something because now his ego was bruised, he was mad, he said, something always told me like God wants me to be here. There's a greater purpose for me than just this. So he said, one specific time that time when those 15 guns were pulled, he went back in his house and he said, You know what? I'm not gonna take this. Who cares? He took his gun, he went, goes back outside, and an older gentleman walks towards him. He says, Stop. What are you doing? He said, They're 17 years old, they don't know nothing about nothing. Go back into that house, take care of your family, spend time with your nephew. And he said, That had to be a higher being, that had to be something because how I've never been stopped before in the 15 times I keep coming back, but someone stopped me then, and maybe that time God kind of like used that man to prevent him from maybe this time spending the rest of his life in prison. Yes, and you know, a lot of people have um, specifically with him, have criticized my work around him, saying, but you know, he's facing 15 years, right? Still, he's been home for a couple years now, but still facing trial. They're like, why work with him? He could go back inside 15 years, that's a long time. I said, but he changed for himself. Even if he did 15 years, now he knows he can change. And that is the thing that people forget. A lot of our young men and women, they don't believe in themselves. They can't see themselves being the president, they can't see themselves being a senator or running a CEO, being a CEO of a company. They can't see that, but now he knows it's possible. When I met him, he said, never possible. This could never be me, Miss V. I said, I think you need to question that. Why can't it be you? You haven't read books, you're not smart, you can't look on YouTube for some information. Yes, it can be you. So even if, right, even if the worst possible scenario happened to this man, he is behind those bars knowing, having faith, I did something that so many people would not be able to do. And that is what keeps his spirit alive. And so to this day, he messages me and he's like, you know, I'm in court, I'm going through all of this, but he said, I feel good.

SPEAKER_00: 37:56

And at that point, even if you were to serve time for a very long time, he will be at peace. Exactly. That's what you're doing. You know, with himself and with the decision, and really, you know, you know, understand that, hey, you know what? I did something wrong, and so hey, that's the consequences that I have to pay. So it's like uh the hardest part, I believe. I've been privileged enough, you know, in my life to never really get in any situation with the law.

unknown: 38:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 38:27

But I believe one of the hardest things that uh people can face, you know, when doing time, it's uh not being able to make peace or don't take responsibility for what they have done. Because we live in a society where it seemed that mistakes were made, but not by me. So we live in a society where people will always try to find somebody or something to put the blame on, but not to fully taking responsibility on, you know, over something that they they knew that they did. And I've oftentimes hearing, you know, uh people, you know, blaming the system or blaming the, you know, so it's all about, you know, I I understand, you know, the slavery. I don't want to say anything that may uh uh sound controversy because that's not the idea of the podcast. So uh as much that I I you know oftentimes place myself in a position to understand people who are who were you know mistreated uh by the system, but I also you know always try to make them understand. It's like you know, so this is the system, this is the way that you have. To conduct yourself, and this is you, so it's like before you wish the system, so you see the way that you're supposed to conduct yourself, what you have done to avoid getting into that situation. I understand for many people, you know, sometimes it may they probably never done anything because in this society you have a lot of people who have served time for things that program that they did not commit. You know? So you know, to serve 15 years, 20 years for something that you didn't do, 20 years of your life, it's quite an amount of time loss that you will never, never, never get back over something that you didn't do. I know it's hard, but for those who committed the crime and serve time, so it's like it's painful for both, yes, but it's you know, like it's more evil for the one who didn't commit the crime.