Your world with Dr. Beatrice Hyppolite
Hello,
I am Dr. Marie Beatrice Hyppolite. I hold a doctorate in Health Science with emphasis on Global Health and master’s degree in social work. I have over 14 years of experience in the field of health and human services.
This podcast is primarily focused on mental health and the quality-of-life elements that affect it such as divorce, death, domestic violence, trauma, toxic relationships, and single parenthood to name a few. It is no secret that mental health challenges continue to profoundly impact modern society although not enough discussion is given due to stigma. Research has shown an increase of 25 % in mental health crises after COVID-19. It is important to have honest, uncomfortable conversations about mental health while being supportive. Although we are interdependent, change begins with the individual, hence “your world.”
I welcome you to join me on my journey and look forward to your responses.
Your world with Dr. Beatrice Hyppolite
Shame, Psyche, and the Depths Within: A Depth Psychology Conversation
Reconnecting with an old friend after more than a decade reveals surprising insights about the human psyche and the psychological wounds we all carry. My special guest Mr. Andreau Charles, a depth-oriented psychotherapist practicing in Manhattan, breaks down complex psychological concepts with remarkable clarity as we explore the transformative potential of depth psychology.
We dive deep into how this therapeutic approach—pioneered by Jung, Freud, and Adler—differs from quick-fix treatments by addressing root causes rather than symptoms. With 62% of American psychologists utilizing some form of depth psychotherapy and client satisfaction rates reaching 75-85%, Mr. Charles explains why this approach creates such lasting transformation. The therapeutic journey involves building rapport, confession, education, integration, and ultimately transformation—allowing patients to reclaim split-off parts of themselves and achieve greater wholeness.
The conversation takes a particularly revealing turn when we examine shame—distinguishing between the healthy shame that helps us recognize our human limitations and the toxic shame that distorts our self-perception. "Shame has this demonic quality because it cuts us off from the generative principle, it cuts us off from life," Mr. Charles explains, revealing how toxic shame operates along two extremes: making us feel either worthless or falsely grandiose. This understanding illuminates how conditions like depression and anxiety often have roots in shame-based experiences, particularly those originating in childhood. Perhaps most surprising is the revelation that "underneath narcissism is shame"—explaining how narcissistic behaviors mask profound insecurity. Whether you're interested in psychology, struggling with shame, or simply curious about what drives human behavior, this conversation offers invaluable insights into our shared psychological experience. Listen now and discover what your psyche might be trying to tell you.
Hello everyone, I'm Dr Beatrice Ippolit and this is your World. Hello everyone, today on the show we have with us a very special guest, my friend. Look at you, Andrew Charles. Yes, when was the last time I've seen you?
Speaker 2:I think it was. Ah, it was a long time, over a decade ago.
Speaker 1:Yes, you know, since grad school, not grad school undergrad. So we did a bachelor program together.
Speaker 2:That was social work, right yes, yes, at your college, at your college we were a very wonderful crew at that time yeah and I miss some of you guys so, but I'm still in contact with few. You remember pierre yes, yes, I remember him, so how?
Speaker 1:are you doing? You look great, great man.
Speaker 2:Thank you, thank you, you're not leaving here without giving me the recipe.
Speaker 1:I want to look that sharp.
Speaker 2:I think what happens is you need to have a lot of rest, Make sure you're taking your vitamins and ensure you have vitamin D during the winter period. Oh yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:Very important.
Speaker 2:Self-care. I am a big component of self-care and rest, and, of course, you have to take care of your body. I like to dress well, I like to be respectful in a way in which I present myself to my patients and the public, and I guess that's what you're seeing.
Speaker 1:But this month, you know, it's Social Work Month, so you know. So what should I say? Happy Social Work Month to all the social workers out there.
Speaker 2:Absolutely happy Social Work Month to all social workers here in the United States and particularly those who graduated from your college and, I think, from the school issue, also graduated forward MSW.
Speaker 1:Adelphi.
Speaker 2:University and Stony Brook University. I'm gonna call all the universities that we're affiliated with Stony Brook University, new York University, columbia University, all those schools that produce good quality social workers. I want to just say that in at this time that we respect, honor you and this is your month, this is our month, yeah and a big shout out to all our great professors yes, our professors Dr Maldivon. Dr Rogers, Dr Lepney. So those are the names that I can remember.
Speaker 1:Those three have really made a great impact in my life. So happy social work month to all the social workers out there.
Speaker 2:I want to say just a little bit about Dr Rogers, because she was Dr Maldivon and Dr Rogers. Just a little bit about Dr Rogers because she was Dr Moldovan and Dr Rogers because both of them were advisors to the social work club when I was the president of the social work club.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, you were. You were along with Jamie.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, so Dr Moldovan is a phenomenal professor. He cares a lot about students.
Speaker 2:Very much so he comes to social work with an advocacy background and he is about equality and pushing the I'm not going to say pushing the agenda, but he wants to make sure that students know that in social work there are certain things that you must do right for equality. Uh, dr rogers, on the other hand, I think she's a little bit more holistic and, uh, she's actually the founder director for the msw program at your college, the time that we attended, there was no master master level at that time.
Speaker 1:That's why we went separate ways to do grad school.
Speaker 2:Yes, but at that time we were advocating for an MSW program at York College. I was part of that committee that were advocating for an MSW program at York.
Speaker 1:Okay, then a big shout out to you too, so you made it happen. You contributed to make it happen. I contributed a little bit.
Speaker 2:I think I contributed a little bit to the process, but it was more so Dr Rogers and other students who carried it on. So just want to say a big shout out to Dr Rogers for all that she's been doing for the students at York College and all the other schools that she's affiliated with.
Speaker 1:I keep that school very close to my heart. I just love your college.
Speaker 2:You know, I came to the United States in 2006 and my goal was to go to your college Two schools actually. It would have been your school, Fordham University, or your college. Those were the two schools that I wanted to go to no, I did not attend Fordham. I attended.
Speaker 1:Adelphi University.
Speaker 2:Not your school, I think, jamie.
Speaker 1:Jamie went to Fordham.
Speaker 2:Fordham, so it would have been either of those schools. While I was in Guyana, I was thinking about which school I want to go to in New York, and those were the two schools that I was interested in.
Speaker 1:Okay, talking about which school that you wanted to go. So what you want the viewers to know about you besides attending your college?
Speaker 2:So I'm a depth-oriented psychotherapist. I have a psychotherapy practice located in Midtown Manhattan. I work from a depth-oriented place, utilizing Carl Jung as my base and utilizing him for relational work and for depth psychological work in terms of looking at the unconscious and how it shows up in the individual and using the elements from the unconscious for healing.
Speaker 1:Okay, very interesting. So what are we going to talk about?
Speaker 2:Okay, I think today you wanted us to talk a little bit about depth psychology, shame and masculine aggression, male aggression and I'll try my best to answer the questions that you post to me and to give you a little bit information about depth psychology first, and and then we can.
Speaker 2:So if you were to give us a brief description about depth psychology, what that would be yes, so depth psychology was developed by sigmund freud um carl jung primarily carl jung, sigmund freud and alfred adler and it's a psychology that based on the objective reality of the psyche, in the sense that we look to the psyche for guidance and also we look to what's occurring at the unconscious level, both on the individual level and the collective level, what's happening unconsciously, that is, informing behaviors, negative behaviors, that require first consciousness and then perhaps integration, right and transformation, because not everything that we discover from the unconscious require integration.
Speaker 1:Yes, so death psychology, I've seen that it's good, it's very important. So I'm gonna briefly read, like the prevalence you know, like you know about it. So the prevalence about it. So the prevalence it says like 62% of psychologists in the US use psychodynamic therapy in the form of death psychotherapy and it's come to realize that it's very effective. You know, in terms of the effectiveness, they say studies show that death psychotherapy can lead to significant improvement in symptoms of anxiety and depression between 60 and 65% Client engagement. Client who receive death psychotherapy report higher satisfaction rates between 75 to 85 percent compared to other form of therapy. Why so?
Speaker 2:Well, depth psychology is not simple, but the simple fact is, depth psychology wants to get to the root of the problem and also we want to make sure that the individual is stabilized, contained and they have the the necessary skills and abilities to address the issues right. So it's not about putting a band-aid on the problem. It's not about thinking the problem away right. There are ways in which. So you want to dig very deep.
Speaker 1:We want to get to the root with the individual and it requires a certain degree of strength, right and constitution, psychological constitution, to to be in that depth psychological space is not a quick fix basically, it's not like I'm having a fever and all you try to do is to put cold power on my forehead or my stomach, so you're gonna dig to go to the wood of what caused me to have fever. Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:And the process is like this the depth psychological process involves a number of things, and it's not that we go to the depths just like that. We take time to get there. So the first step is to build rapport with the patient, right, and then during that time we move to the next step, which is confession. We cannot heal what we don't know, we cannot correct what we are avoiding. So the confession component of depth psychology requires truth telling. And so we have the rapport building, you have confession, you have education, where you're educating the patient about the, the problem and so on.
Speaker 2:Then you have integration, where you're integrating those parts that the patient wants to avoid, deny, reject, project onto other people. And then the fourth part is transformation, where the individual is becoming whole. Right, it's as if they're able to collect those parts of themselves that were split off either consciously or unconsciously. So now they're able to collect those parts of themselves that were split off either consciously or unconsciously. So now they're able to collect those parts, assemble it right and they're more whole. And that's why depth psychology is more long-lasting in terms of the way in which patients benefit from depth psychology. So again, we have to remember that it's not a one, two, three quick fix. It's not that it requires time, it requires dedication, and for some people they don't have the time, so they cannot dedicate it also requires a lot of patience it requires, as I said, that emotional strength and constitution.
Speaker 2:You have to be a hero in your own life, right To want to fix the problem, to want to become whole, right. But for some people they're not able to do so and for those people I may treat them, yes, but we get to a point where we address the symptoms and they feel good, but they're not ready to go down to the depths, and that's fine. They may leave and then, when they're ready, they may come back and then we look at what's happening. Now. There are certain features or elements of depth psychology that is critical for the work and that is, in terms of Jungian psychology, that is dream analysis. Dream analysis is one of the most important features of the work that I do with patients, because what we know in terms of the objective reality of the psyche is that the psyche communicates to us in dreams, images, messages, poetry, dance and so forth, and the psyche is able to tell us the truth, to bypass the ego and to give us the truth that the ego is not able to cover up.
Speaker 1:And the psyche is not only internal.
Speaker 2:And yes, and the psyche is not internal, it's not just something that lives inside the individual brain, it's also in the body and it's also external. It's externalized in the culture, it's externalized in the way in which we in politics, it's externalized in the way in which we fight war. It's externalized in our economy. The psyche is everywhere and the most important thing that I want to talk about the psyche here is that the psyche has this ability to course correct and to bring about equilibrium and balance. So, when the individual goes all the way to the left in terms of pathology, psyche is trying to bring the individual back to balance. Now, if it is that the individual cannot come back to balance, then that individual will die.
Speaker 2:Okay. In a way, it's as if psyche is saying you have to course correct. Psyche is a living entity and it wants to live. It wants us to be able to live a life of plenty, a life of balance, a life of wholeness, and it's okay. Life and culture and all of these things can take us in various different places. However, the aim of psyche is to bring us into balance. Okay, Okay. So that was a lot.
Speaker 1:No, that's very good information and I like the fact that you were able to elaborate on the different shape or form that psychic can take, because for many people when they hear the word psychic, they only see the internal, but I like the way that you address the outside yes aspect of component of it. So let me go to shame. Yes, shame affects approximately 70 to 80 percent of general population, with a higher weight among individuals with mental health conditions. Shame is linked to increased symptoms of depression between 40 to 50 percent, anxiety between 30 to 40 percent and substance abuse between 20 to 30 percent. Treatment and outcome shame focused therapy can lead to a significant reduction in shame 40 to 50 percent and improvement in self-esteem between 30 to 40 percent those are all accurate statistics.
Speaker 2:Young tells us a little bit about shame and for him, shame has this demonic quality. Because toxic shame has this demonic quality? Because it cuts us off from the generative principle, it cuts us off from life. So you just talk about depression, you talk about alcoholism, you talk about all these other mental health conditions that a person who would have been exposed to a shame-filled space may be struggling with. So let's talk a little bit more about shame.
Speaker 2:So there are two types of shame. There's a healthy shame and then there is toxic shame. Healthy shame is there to help us understand that we are limited as human beings in this world. We are limited and that we must operate within our limitation. Understand, accept and know that we must operate within our limitation because we are not all powerful. Right, ultimate power belong to the archetypal REM. It's not a human thing, okay. So in that sense, that's what healthy shame helps us to do. Toxic shame, on the other hand, tells us that we are not limited to some degree. Tells us that we're not limited, that we are big, all-compassing, and that we control everything. That's one strand of toxic shame. And then, on the other hand, there are two ends of it. On the extreme right we're big, we're grandiose. On the extreme right we're big, we're grandiose. On the extreme left we are weak, we're impotent and we deserve to die. That's what toxic shame does. It robs us of the ability to grow and to become whole, and it manifests in many different ways.
Speaker 1:So, for example, in terms of toxic shame there is a and for those whose anxiety, depression and stress may get escalated. So that comes from the toxic Shame, shame.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely. As I said, there are two poles. On one hand, you're weak, you feel as though you're defective and you're not good right. And then, on the other hand, instead of identifying with your limitations, you're not weak, you're strong, you're grandiose, you can do anything and everything. But behind that, there is a shame that you're covering with your grandiosity Right. And, on the other hand, the person who is weak, who is defective, what they're doing, they're covering their shame because they're hiding Right.
Speaker 2:And so, for someone who may be depressed, we may find that the depression is rooted in shame, shame that may come from an inherited shame that came from the family right, or a shame that was learned, that was taught to the individual.
Speaker 2:So, for example, what we know in terms of healthy shame?
Speaker 2:Healthy shame is offered to us in a conducive environment, in a prepared environment.
Speaker 2:This means that the child knows that, okay, he or she is playing with their feces, right. But the child doesn't know what feces is right, and mother or caregiver spans the child, shames the child, ridicules the child, and to tell him that, okay, this is not what you're supposed to do, you cannot express yourself in this particular way, rather than helping them to understand that, okay, we understand that you're within this age range and this is what you're trying to do now. You're trying to express yourself, but we want you to do it in a way that you don't make a whole mess, right? So you have two opposite things occurring here. One is the individual being shamed by the caregiver, right, and the other one where the in, where the individual is being told okay, there's another way for you to express yourself. You can express yourself here, yes, but there's another way for you to do it whereby it's not so dangerous to you or dangerous to the environment can I also use that example when a man tell a woman you know you ain, you ain't good, no man want you.
Speaker 1:Yes, so I'm the only one who can put up with you. Yes. And so some women sometimes say the same thing to men too yes. So can we use that as an example as well?
Speaker 2:Yes, that's a good example. It's as if he's shaming her to say that she's of no value, she's not good Right, and she's only good because he has the ability to acknowledge her. It's as if her goodness is predicated on his wanting her right. Well, I would be concerned to know a little bit about him and his psychology. Why is it that he's behaving in that particular way and where shame lies in his life?
Speaker 1:But that's on a psychological point of view.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:But for me, as just a regular woman in that person's life and I may not have the intellectual that you have to question where that behavior comes from. Yes, I'm just a regular person into his life, and this is what I've been hearing every day.
Speaker 2:Yes, and including the fact that maybe this individual was shamed earlier in life as well, and they thought that they were not good enough as well. Right, that they were not valuable, and this is the only way they can become valuable is because someone else, this man, is saying, okay, I value, but then, at the same time, you're only valuable when I say you're valuable.
Speaker 1:So, in a way, in order for a man to treat a woman like that, or a woman to treat a man like that, you must have a problem. Yes, yes, that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:You have a problem, there is an issue there. Okay, right, maybe in this discussion I'll talk a little bit about what could be at play there. As I was saying, there are these two poles, right, and so perhaps this person who is operating from that space of saying you're only valuable because I'm giving you value is grandiose and he's covering his own shame by doing that right. And for her, in this example, she may have been at the other end of the pole, socialized in such a way where she feels as though she's not valuable. I don't really know the statistics on this, but you find that a lot of times, people who have shame based streaks or shame based history tend to collide with each other, tend to marry each other. Right, like someone who is at this extreme end may only want someone who is so weak, so not good, that they can find value in themselves by being with that person Someone that he feels who is beneath him.
Speaker 2:Yes, who is beneath him? Yes, I think I said this earlier, that underneath narcissism is shame, below narcissism is shame. Underneath narcissism is shame, below narcissism is shame, because the narcissist, in many ways, is a very weak psychologically and emotionally weak individual, right Whereby they may have been brought up in a shame-filled environment or, on the other hand, they may have been brought up in a way whereby they have not acknowledged shame at all.
Speaker 1:And it doesn't matter of the social orientation, financial situation, religion or class. It doesn't matter.
Speaker 2:It doesn't matter. As I said, what Carl Jung said to us is that shame has a demonic quality to it and because it's a demonic quality, cuts across strata. It's not confined to one class of people or one race or ethnicity right, it goes across.
Speaker 1:Yes, let's look at the masculine aggression now.